The Logics

Dialogues of Nodin and William - Right and Wrong - Premarital Intercourse

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The Logics

Right and Wrong - Premarital Intercourse

Gustave Moreau - Orpheus

Gustave Moreau - Orpheus


Nature dictates that by what actions a man initiates,

so will he reap.


Larry Neal Gowdy

Copyright©2007-2013 - Updated October 20, 2013



William : In the days since you and I touched on the topic of ethics, and how honesty is deemed an ethic, within my torso there has been a gnawing of questions about what should be proper conduct and choices in life, and each time I read an article or hear someone speak of ethics, the gnawing of desiring answers grows ever stronger.

Nodin : It is a good sign when a man desires properness in his choices, for it is true that not all men care to behave with correctness and honor. Without the soul first desiring and gnawing for properness, a man will forever remain improper in thought and deed. Have your questions not been answered by observing your own self, as you did with the topic of honesty?

William : Unfortunately no, for although I can now comprehend what things like honesty and patience are, still there remain many things that I cannot so easily self-observe since the items are choices that I will not know the results of until I am much older. How can I know what correct choice to make today if I do not know what the future result might be?

Nodin : Ah, yes, I am familiar with the variety of gnawing that you speak of, for regardless of how earnestly we apply our reasoning to today, still it remains difficult to choose an action whose result will not occur until a future date when the choice will prove to have been right or wrong, or beneficial or damaging. The most important item of all, is that the choice, once acted upon, cannot be taken back. Choose carefully, for once chosen, you will have sealed your fate.

William : What you have pointed to is exactly what I am concerned of. If I choose to commit an act today, one that appears harmless at the moment, will the act result in a future of thankfulness or a future of regret? How should we proceed with our choices? Is there a preferred scale of weighing choices, or perhaps a system of principles to judge our actions?

Nodin : As our present is based on our actions of the past, our present actions are based on our chosen future. If a man were to have a future goal of achieving mastery in violin and playing the violin before an audience, then the future goal dictates that he will practice playing the violin today. Our choices of today show evidence of what our future goal is and what our future will be.

William : True, and I agree with you, but what about the many variables that influence the future? What if a man desires to master the violin, and yet the man has not given attention to his health? A diseased man cannot physically play the violin at mastery level, and so with each goal there must be many other goals that work in harmony and support the main goal.

Nodin : Very good! Yes, to achieve any creative thing there must also be an accompaniment of supportive elements as like what you alluded to. Though a man might be a master of violin, if he is an evil man who does evil deeds, he may not have the opportunity to play the violin in an orchestra hall if he is in prison for having committed crimes. Similarly, though a man might be the world's best violinist, if the man is a liar, he may not attain the opportunity to play for audiences due to concert promoters not accepting the man as a client. To achieve a quality future, a man requires a quality present.

William : Since I am without a knowing of how to progress with my reasoning about future choices, I must begin by asking vague questions while hoping that the questions will with time become better clarified. I have seen reports that some public school administrators are promoting the elimination of teaching right and wrong, that the teachers are supposed to only help students achieve secure values and beliefs: although to me it appears that without the educators specifying what is implied by values and beliefs, that the values and beliefs might be anything including the value in greed, or a belief in absurdities like the universe coming into existence from nothing. I am unsure exactly why the new teaching method is wrong, but my whole being cries that the teaching method is destructive to the student, and my mind seeks to discover what the soul is telling me to be true.

Nodin : Once a system of rationale has denied the Nature-based logics, the system of rationale will dance within a self-orchestrated belief that absolute values cannot exist, but rather all is relative to the winds of today's events. While it is true that everything in Reality is relative to everything else, while simultaneously being One, still it is incorrect to believe that right and wrong are merely relative to the moment of time in which a person weighs only the present events, his not weighing the past as well as the future.

William : So then there is indeed right and wrong?

Nodin : Yes of course, and as we spoke of previously, right is what agrees with Nature, and wrong is what disagrees. A thing or action is wrong if it cannot be traced back to its origins to verify that the thing or action is supported by the natural actions of Nature, and it is also wrong if the thing or action is traced into a future time where the sum of actions will not produce a higher quality of creativity. That which is right is that which agrees with Nature, the thing is in harmony with Natural laws, and the thing will in time create betterment for Nature and man himself. Nature is the fixed point that cannot be ignored; Nature dictates what is right and what is wrong. Man can complain and speak all manner of words against Natural laws, but man cannot escape the Natural laws. Nature rules man, man does not rule Nature.

William : True, and I thank you for your clarifying the topic well in yours writings, but since we began today with the subject of right and wrong in public education, I wish to ask a question that I speculate is on many people's minds, of young and old alike. Many schools now today teach that there is no harm in a child having premarital intimacy with another child. We know that religions say it is wrong, and we know in our hearts that it is wrong, but what we do not seem to know is how to explain to a child why premarital intimacy is wrong.

Nodin : To discover an answer, first it is necessary to ask questions of how the question itself is structured so that we might clarify in our own minds exactly what we are asking, and not what we might only be believing to ask. To derive at an answer of your question, let us first ask questions of the topics within your question, and upon our having determined a clarification of each topic, we will then be in a position to best answer the original question. And so I ask this; is the physical act of intercourse good or bad in the eyes of Nature?

William : I apologize, but I do not know what you mean. Good or bad in what way? It appears to me that procreation is a good thing for all life, and all living things that reproduce similarly to the method of man is also a good thing. Ah, I believe I now see what you may have been pointing to, that the act itself is proper in the eyes of Nature?

Nodin : Yes, very good, you have caught the gist of how we should approach the topic. Now, as with the violinist who must acquire various other qualities before he can master the violin, so must an individual choose which qualities to accompany the person's primary future goal. Answer me this, that if the violinist is dishonest and at a future date he finds himself unable to play for an audience due to his dishonesty, will he then be happy for his dishonesty, or will he regret his past choice to be dishonest?

William : I would think that the man would surely be regretful for having been dishonest since his dishonesty would prevent him from fulfilling his goal of playing the violin for an audience.

Nodin : So then might the violinist in his future time wish that he could return to the present and become honest?

William : Surely he would wish that he could return to the present and make a better choice, a choice that would better his future life.

Nodin : Does the needed honesty for the violinist apply to everyone, or to just a few individuals?

William : As we have spoken of in days past, and as I remember well, honesty is a Nature-based principle of accuracy, and therefore honesty should be present in all endeavors, including mastering the violin.

Nodin : Do you then see how honesty influenced our imaginary story of the violinist?

William : Yes, I believe I do; accuracy in behavior will help create a higher quality of one's goals and future life.

Nodin : Very good William, and as we return to the topic of intercourse, we must now apply the question of honesty to intercourse as well. In what manner will honesty affect the future of a person who has intercourse today?

William : I am unsure how to answer your question Nodin, for part of me wants to lean upon the example of the violinist and say that dishonesty might create a negative future, but do we not need to ask additional questions of the question itself before we can arrive at a suitable solution? I sense that any answer I give at present would be too vague to be of usefulness.

Nodin : Excellent indeed! Very well then, let us answer the question of how honesty affects a person's future life by asking questions about an individual's goal in life. Let us say, for an example, that a young lady is our subject of interest, and that she has a common goal in life that is similar to what many other young ladies of her age have. What, in your opinion, might be a common goal for a young lady?

William : It appears to me that most young women desire to be married and raise children. There is a joy for a woman to bring new life into the world, and there is also a joy in being the wife of a man who loves her. Surely it is a desire that almost everyone shares, a feeling of wanting to be loved and cared for.

Nodin : Your thoughts mirror mine, that great value is placed on our need for love and caring. But now, is not intercourse an acceptable thing in marriage, as well as a necessary thing for creating children?

William : Yes, intercourse in marriage is a proper thing and it is necessary for procreation. Of that there is no question.

Nodin : Then if we apply the Natural law of honesty into the act of intercourse, will the honesty improve or damage the marriage or the rearing of children?

William : Oh, but honesty is very important in marriage and in having children. A husband or wife that is dishonest, by the very act of dishonesty the marriage will be harmed and possibly be cause for divorce, and the divorce would have a life-long negative effect on the children, as well as result in the children assuming the dishonest behavioral traits of the parents. Yes, dishonesty in marriage is very harmful to everyone in the family as well as to everyone that comes into contact with the family members; dishonesty is detrimental to society itself.

Nodin : We are rapidly entering into the complexities of a singular behavior, where a singular choice of the moment greatly influences the whole of all other future choices in life, and it can be difficult for us to list each influence one by one since the many influences flow side by side simultaneously, but let us try to touch on at least three variables so that we might derive a useful concept of present acts, quality behaviors, and future goals. To clarify our thoughts thus far, please tell me William, is the act of intercourse itself good or bad?

William : The act of intercourse itself is blameless, and when used within the purpose of marriage and children, intercourse is a proper thing in the eyes of Nature.

Nodin : So then there is no question or difficulty whatsoever with the act of intercourse itself, but rather any difficulty arising from the act would be influenced by Natural laws, such as honesty, and future goals?

William : Yes, I believe we agree that is correct.

Nodin : So then if we keep in mind the future goal of a young lady desiring marriage and the love of a good man, how might the act of premarital intercourse influence her goal for a future life?

William : It appears to me that the goal would not be greatly influenced, for as we agreed, intercourse itself is blameless.

Nodin : Ah, but let us place questions about the goal itself. Does not the lady desire a man to love her?

William : Yes, of course, that would likely be the single most important thing regardless of whether the woman ever gets married or has children.

Nodin : What sort of man is capable of the quantity and quality of love that a woman seeks?

William : The man would naturally have to possess many quality traits himself, he would need to be of honesty, patience, compassion, empathy, and affection towards his wife.

Nodin : In Nature, only things that are similar in nature have the ability to harmonize and create a quality bond, and the same Natural law applies to friendships and marriages as well. So tell me, if a woman is desiring a good man of quality traits, do you believe that such a man would find attraction in a woman with disquality traits?

William : No, of course not. No good man of honesty and positive behaviors would willingly choose a woman of dishonesty, hate, greed, and other negative behaviors.

Nodin : Then might you agree that if a lady has a future goal of marrying a good man of quality traits, that she should choose today to also possess such traits so that she might attract the man of her goal?

William : You are correct Nodin, and I feel that I well understand what you are pointing to, that our future spouse will likely mirror our own inward nature, and if we should desire a spouse of certain qualities then we should ourselves attain the qualities as well.

Nodin : On a parallel-flowing influence, you and I agreed that regret in the future is not a desirable thing, but what we have not yet voiced with clarity of words is our view of what manner of regrets that a person may later experience in life. But before we answer the question of regrets, let us first once again bring up the topic of negativity and positivity. Your memory is good William, and I trust that you remember our other discussions about the effects that negativity and positivity have on the mind, body, and soul?

William : Yes Nodin, I remember well our discussions, and I have given focused attention to my own emotions and how they influence my own thoughts and health. Within the topic before us, that of the question of intercourse, I can now see that any act of intercourse that results in negative emotions in the present or future, is unhealthy. Ah, Nodin, I believe that I am beginning to grasp an idea of where you have been leading me, and more, my heart is crying that there is a vast quantity of life-long effects of every action we commit today.

Nodin : Yes, true, every act at the present will influence how all future emotions arise, and an unwanted act will give cause for unwanted emotions in the future, and the unwanted emotions will cause unwanted negative health of mind and body and spirit. Positive choices, such as honesty and love always produce wanted futures, and the favorable results produce favorable health of mind, body, and spirit.

William : Please allow me to speak out-loud my thoughts Nodin, for my thoughts are racing within me and are anxious to be expressed. So then, as I am currently interpreting this, we have no fewer than three things running side by side simultaneously, and each influences the other. There is the future goal that requires correct present choices to achieve the desired future, the Natural law of correctness that creates the bettered future, and we also have the individual's health that is influenced by the emotions, with the emotions themselves being directly influenced by the correctness of the choices of today as well as the results of the future. I can sense no separateness in the three things, that each exists and survives within the other, and that the coloring of one will result in the coloring of all. Correctness, or by the name of honesty, is required to achieve a future goal, and by what actions we commit from the time of today until the goal is achieved, so will the actions influence our emotions and thus our health and very lives. So then, this thing about intercourse, although the act itself is blameless, then by how the act influences our future emotions and our future lives, that is the item that should receive the greater attention.

Nodin : Yes my dear William, you are figuring it out yourself, analyzing it yourself, and the analysis is far more meaningful to you now, and of such greater value than someone having been merely told to do or not do an act. It is a disservice to all intellects when an individual is expected to obey a rule without the individual first being allowed the opportunity to understand why the rule exists. It is detrimental to a child's psyche to be forced to follow an unknown reasoning, and perhaps more often than not a child will rebel against the unreasonable thing by committing the very act that the rule stated to not commit. Is it not a curious thing that a human is so prone to disobey an irrational law, but the same human will willingly live by the law once the human understands why the law exists?

William : To me it seems to be more of a humor than a curiosity, but I do fully agree with you Nodin. But my mind is still struggling with questions about premarital intercourse, and I sense that if I were to sit down and write on paper my future goals in life, I would quickly determine how I truly feel about premarital intercourse. I myself also want to be married someday, and I desire for a wife that is inquisitive, honest, and capable of loving me as much as I love her.

Nodin : Please tell me; how much love do you wish to shower upon your wife?

William : An endless love, boundless, a beautiful love that I would give my very life for her happiness and wellbeing.

Nodin : And will you share that love with other women?

William : Oh of course not, for I wish for my love to be special for one wife only. I want my wife and I to become bonded, inseparable, as one.

Nodin : And as we discussed about how likes attract because they can harmonize, do you feel that your wife should possess similar qualities as the ones that you wish to shower upon her from yourself?

William : Yes of course; I want her to love me as much as I love her.

Nodin : And you will not shower other women with the love you give to your wife?

William : No, for I desire for my love to my wife to be whole and spotless.

Nodin : Then you also desire for your wife to have the similar quality of not sharing her love with other men?

William : Well of course! All good marriages are based on giving love to the spouse and none others, for once the love is no longer singular between spouses, the bond of marriage cannot endure, and all of my future goals would not be fulfilled, and now that I sense where this is leading us, my future emotions would become negative and destroy my health of mind, body, and spirit. It would be a terrible thing for me to suffer the hurt of my wife losing her love for me, and I also now realize within me that I could not endure the thought of having caused grief for my wife if I were unfaithful to her.

Nodin : Then you value solidarity in marriage?

William : Yes, very much.

Nodin : And you do not want your wife to be thinking about becoming the wife of other men?

William : No, very much not, for it would give evidence that her love for me is not full and as ideal as possible. I do not want to think of any other woman but my wife, and I wish for the same attention from my wife.

Nodin : Then think carefully on this, and answer me please; do you suspect that if your wife had been married to another man before, that she might think of her previous husband at times?

William : I see what you are saying Nodin, and I am ashamed to say that I am aware that the imperfection applies to husbands as well, for once a person has shared intimacy with another person, the memories will forever exist, and no future marriage can be of the best quality. A fullness of love cannot exist between a husband and wife if there had been previous spouses, for always there will remain a fondness or dislike of the previous spouse, and the emotions will influence the new marriage, and upon giving attention to this I must conclude that all of the emotions will create a negativity in the person's life. The emotions of dislike are obviously negative, and even the emotions of still caring for a previous spouse will result in a lessening of affection for the new spouse, which will result in a stress which itself is a negative emotion.

Nodin : So please tell me now; is premarital intercourse good, bad, or blameless?

William : Oh it is bad, a very bad thing, and I must admit that I am with a heart that is horrified with the realization of how much harm intercourse outside of marriage can cause.

Nodin : I suspect that you can now tell me with confidence whether right and wrong exists?

William : Ha! Yes indeed! Intercourse outside of marriage is wrong, and intercourse with a single spouse is right, and I base my conclusions not on laws or commandments of what people tell me, but I am basing my conclusions on what I myself have analyzed and determined to be true.

Nodin : Very good my friend William, I am pleased to see that you have answered your first question about whether right and wrong existed, but at this point I wish to bring into focus one other aspect of the topic presently before us. You and I have well discovered why premarital intercourse is wrong, but what other results might we conclude from the discussion?

William : I am unsure Nodin, for at the moment my mind is only thinking about how the future is so greatly influenced by even blameless acts of today, and I am unaware of how there might be other ramifications of premarital intercourse.

Nodin : Let me ask you this, that now that you are aware of how negative emotions will create negative health and lives in the future, what is your opinion of a person that causes the negative emotions in another person?

William : I have read of such behaviors, and it is termed psychological terrorism. Psychological terrorism is a frighteningly horrible thing, for it causes a lifetime of pain and suffering that can never be healed except by death. Comparing the negative results of psychological terrorism to the Natural laws, I can now see just how important it is for everyone to be of positive behaviors, for any incorrect behavior, which itself is not in agreement with the Natural laws, is destructive to mind, body, and spirit of everyone.

Nodin : What then is your opinion of a man who uses a woman for intercourse under the promise of love and marriage, but does not love nor marry her? Is his act blameless, right, or wrong?

William : Forgive me Nodin for my emotional reply, but I abhor what I can only describe as it being an evil for a man to commit such a horrendous crime against a soul. Surely the woman will suffer the rest of her life from the man's evil deed.

Nodin : Would the deed be of similar evil for a woman to make similar unkept promises?

William : Yes, in my opinion the deed would remain evil regardless of whether it was committed by a man or woman. To prey upon another's love, and then abuse it with dishonest promises, in my eyes there would be few acts worse that any person could possibly commit.

Nodin : Can you, William, find reason to suspect that premarital intercourse might ever be a good thing?

William : I can only speculate of course, and I suspect that there might be instances where a man is leaving for war, but before he leaves it is his and a woman's intention to marry, and their intercourse is performed within the belief that it signifies marriage, and the determining factor here would be that neither the man nor woman ever had intercourse with anyone else the remainders of their lives regardless of whether the man returned home safely or not. I suspect that there are always unique circumstances where many deeds are justifiable and positive, but as a whole, in my opinion, intercourse outside of marriage is wrong because it is harmful to the individuals committing the deed, as well as harmful to everyone else that the individuals come into contact with due to the negative emotions being spread like a disease.

Nodin : Then what, in your opinion, might be the "values and beliefs" that the schools might teach as a replacement for right and wrong?

William : As I feared previously, I fear that the value and beliefs taught in schools will not be based on Natural laws, and the schools will perpetuate the suffering of our children, not just a suffering while in a child's age, but a suffering that will endure the whole of the students' lives. Nodin, please, I am not comfortable with this topic, for I am now recognizing the great pain and suffering that the schools are forcing upon our children, a pain and suffering that I too must endure, and my heart is crying for all the souls that will experience pain in their future lives, a pain that might have been avoided if only the teachers had not committed the sin of denying children the right of correct knowledge.

Nodin : I too share a similar grief for the children and the adults, but as you and I both know, we have no say in how the schools choose their methods of teaching, and all that you and I can do is to quietly reason our own choices for ourselves, and hope that perhaps someday, someday perhaps, the people will learn to question questions, and then question the questions' questions to arrive at rational and creative choices in life.

William : Nodin, my mind is presently aware with thoughts of our previous discussions of how philosophy does not know what ethics and morals are, and thus neither can the schools know, and thus too the students are not taught the nature of ethics and morals. My mind is racing with a search for the values taught and not taught in schools, and I am finding that the actions of schools are detrimental, not creative. We know that positivity is beneficial for mind, body, and spirit, and yet the schools have purposefully removed positive topics from the curriculums. We know that sleep deprivation is a form of physical and psychological torture, and sleep deprivation is even listed as a banned form of torture in the Geneva Convention, but the schools create a situation where many children cannot get adequate sleep. And of the many other negative things that schools commit on children, it appears that governments do the same. Forgive me Nodin, but the more that I ponder the negative behavior of schools and governments, the more depressed I become.

Nodin : Man has abandoned Nature, and man has raised up for himself a false god of worshipping man-made laws instead of honoring Natural laws, and the result has been what we today see all around us. Nature dictates that man requires a quantity of sleep, and no man-made laws of less sleep can overcome what Nature dictates. Nature dictates that man's health will fail if man dwells in negativity, but man fully believes that he can create positive results with negative laws. You and I well know what manner of actions will cause an individual to be slow of mind and body, you and I know what actions will cause a person to lose his ability to reason, and we find all of the actions being committed in public schools: sleep deprivation, denial of right and wrong, denial of ethics and morals, denial of analysis, promotion of premarital intercourse, promotion of dishonesty, promotion of greed, and promotion of all choices that must create negative futures.

William : These things that schools and governments do to the public, my heart is telling me that the actions are far more fiendish that what my mind cares to admit, and I almost wish that I had never touched upon the subject.

Nodin : Please allow me to point-out one last item so that you might best grasp how badly man-made laws attempt to force man into a life not in agreement with Nature. Please tell me William, what is today the lawful age of individuals to marry and have intercourse?

William : The typical legal age is eighteen years old, and it is considered a serious crime for an adult to have intercourse with an individual under the legal age.

Nodin : Do you remember the age of your great-grandparents when they were married?

William : I believe my great-grandfather was sixteen, and my great-grandmother was fourteen. They remained happily married until death about sixty years later. It was common to marry young in those days, and it was legal.

Nodin : If a law can be changed, then the law was never valid, and neither is the new law valid. Natural laws never change, and Natural laws are always valid. Wheresoever a man-made law disagrees with Natural laws, the man-made law is wrong, dishonorable, and destructive to human life. Please tell me, why has the legal age of marriage changed since the time of your great-grandparents?

William : Quite honestly, I am unsure why the laws were changed to a higher age. It appears to me, however, that perhaps the laws were changed so as to keep children in schools long enough to earn a high school diploma, although upon reflection, and as you and I both well recognize, a typical child could complete high school level courses by the age of fourteen, and so the later age of eighteen does not settle well with the idea of education. Perhaps the later age is like what some authors have opined, that it is to indoctrinate and program children into submission of accepting that their lives have no value except to slave at menial occupations. I do not at present have solid answers for the questions, but within my soul there exists a burning that tells me that the result of raising the legal age of marriage has greatly harmed humanity.

Nodin : What does Nature dictate? At what age is an individual ready for marriage and intercourse?

William : Biologically, the human creature is designed to begin intercourse by around the ages of thirteen to fifteen, similar to the age that my great-grandparents were married.

Nodin : Do man's laws agree and harmonize with Nature's laws?

William : No, I see what you mean, and it is true that man's laws attempt to force man to live outside of what Nature dictates as correctness.

Nodin : I am confident that you can now reason to yourself why there is today a high incidence of divorces, premarital intercourse, diseases, and a dumbing-down of the population, and all of it can be traced directly back to the schools and man-made laws that attempt to defy what Nature dictates as true and valuable. For my own curiosity William, can you tell me of any man-made law that is superior or more creative than any Natural law?

William : No Nodin, I cannot think of any man-made law that has created a favored outcome above what Nature provides naturally, and I am now with the opinion that if man were to design his laws to be in harmony with Natural laws, then humanity might begin evolving into an intelligent and creative creature that can enjoy a life of happiness and joy of simply being alive. Nature dictates that marriage should begin by around the age of fourteen to sixteen when the biological clock awakens the desire for marriage and rebellion towards parents, but man forces marriage to be delayed another four or five years, thereby effectively almost assuredly forcing premarital intercourse, a destruction of the natural rhythms of life, and without question causing human suffering for the whole of people's lives. No Nodin, in my eyes, all man-made laws relative to life cycles are destructive, and purposefully so.

Nodin : This has been an excellent topic William, for it helps to bring into focus the need to accept Natural laws regardless of what man might claim to the contrary. When you have children, I trust that you will explain the Natural laws to them, and to give your children the opportunity to analyze and choose their own futures while knowing that whatsoever choices they make, the responsibility of those choices, as well as the outcomes, are the children's alone. Perhaps one of the greatest gifts a parent can give to their child is to help teach the child how to reason for himself.